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FREDEGRAR

Not looking for anything serious, just a fun time.
Articles Posted: 21  Links Seeded: 445
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Debt Limit Dealin': GOP Can't Accept tax increases? Fine. How about this?

Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:21 PM EDT
politics, obama, gop, congress, debt-ceiling, potus, debt-ceiling-negotiations
By fredegrar

Live Poll

Should the debt-ceiling be raised?

View Results
  • 154492
    Of course. The consequences of not raising it at this time would be catasptrophic. You'd have to be a madman not to.
    67%
  • 154493
    yes
    14%
  • 154494
    no
    16%
  • 154495
    This is all just another sick liberal conspiracy! Rush rules! Rush rules!
    2%

VoteTotal Votes: 83

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First off, this whole thing is ridiculous. The debt limit was created in order to keep Congress from having to approve each and every debt issuance by Treasury - not, as Speaker Boehner claims to "reign in government spending." Approving all those debt requests used to take up a lot of time and we all know how much Congress-people like to work. Since first being introduced it's been raised routinely and regularly (87 times) - two-thirds of the time under Republican administrations. Holding the debt limit hostage now is the act of an extreme political ideology gone mad.

Anyway, given that this *is* really happening and supposedly responsible politicians are threatening to throw the US and probably global economy into a tailspin if we don't stick it to the old, sick, young, and poor, we're left searching for ways out of this ridiculous mess. The GOP insists that no taxes can be raised. Ever. Period. This includes the premise that allowing tax cuts to expire or closing loopholes equates to raising taxes. If that inflexible position turns out to be a little flexible after all, I would propose a debt deal like this: all spending reductions (with quibbling to be done over the details, but preferably ones that INCLUDE defense, the drug war, and other corporate welfare) PLUS a permanent extension of the Bush tax cuts for earner under 250k/yr. Yes, really. All spending cuts and a huge tax decrease.

The rub? No extension of the Bush tax cuts for the top 2%-ers - or at least the removal of the leverage the GOP uses to get those tax cuts extended. Extending the tax cuts for the middle class now takes that hostage away from the GOP the next time we have to sit through a ridiculous debate about extending the Bush tax cuts. When the GOP insists we once again extend those tax cuts the Democrats will be able to ask what's in it for them?

Note that this proposal would not technically be "allowing tax cuts to expire." It would only be the removal of one (big) piece of leverage. If the GOP insists those tax rates stay low, they can win a couple more elections and do so. My real wish is that perhaps in the future, if a reasonably sane Congress ever gets elected again, we can revisit tax code revisions and social spending without so much stark raving mad rhetoric, but for now... just do what it takes to pay the damn bills!

Thanks.

-Increasingly Nervous Investor

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  • Public Discussion (31)
fredegrar

Of course, the GOP can't take "yes" for an answer. The easiest way to turn the GOP against an idea is to have President Obama come out in favor of it. Of course this only results in the GOP having to come up with a MORE EXTREME right-wing positrion, so is counter-productive in the end.

  • 15 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:24 PM EDT
grumpy_jon

Ironic, ain't it? Tee-hee!

  • 4 votes
#1.1 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:58 PM EDT
Robert in Ohio

frededgar

How about this

1) All tax rates revert to the Clinton era levels and the extra tax revenue is all used to pay down the debt. When the debt is cut in half, tax rates for those making less than $1 Million per year revert to the Bush rates.

2) 20% cut in defense spending and then annual increases equal to inflation for 5 years. Troops in Iraq come home immediately, troops in Afghanistan all out by July 2012 and all kinetic actions end in Libya, Yemen, Syria and wherever else they are playing around.

3) Discretionary spending levels cut to 2008 budget levels and annual increases equal to inflation for 5 years. If a larger increase is needed in a specific department or program, immediate deeper cuts must be made in other programs.

4) All subsidies to industries (all industries) end.

5) All loopholes, deductions and credits in the corporate tax code are eliminated effective Jan 1, 2012 and the corporate tax rate is lowered to 25% immediately.

6) Bipartisan commission convened with 60 days to draft reforms to all entitlement programs (including a review of ACA) and provide those reforms to Congressfor vote by March 31, 2012 (up or down vote no amendments). If Congress fails to pass the recommended reforms the following changes take effect eligibility age for ss and medicare rises to 69 progressively over the next 15 years, taxable income cap of $106K is eliminated and medicare payroll tax is increased to 3% for employees and 5% for employers.

How about changes like that,neither side would like all of them, but both sides would love some of them.

I an an independent on the conservative side and while there are parts I do not like, it would certainly be preferable to repeated debt ceiling crises in the future or a default now

  • 7 votes
#1.2 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:53 PM EDT
fredegrar

1) All tax rates revert to the Clinton era levels and the extra tax revenue is all used to pay down the debt.

Between reasonable people such a deal might be possible, but since the Republican leadership - Cantor in particular - have taken an inflexibly hard line on tax increases, this would be a non-starter to them; much as the 2008 budget levels would be taken as a non-starter on the Democratic side.

That's basically what compromise is... willingness to give in on a point or two, but that definitely doesn't seem to be going on in Washington right now, at least not on the GOP side in my opinion.

  • 11 votes
#1.3 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:13 PM EDT
Robert in Ohio

frededgar

I think it is not going on on both sides, but the tax issue is the most perplexing for sure

If there were real entitlement reforms and real tax revenue increases, both sides would get something they want and give in on something they didn't want to do which would mean a good compromise IMHO

  • 2 votes
#1.4 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:25 PM EDT
chitownty

robert in ohio:There is unfortunately a number of diehards in the House who wouldn't vote for a raise in taxes even if it meant saving the world.The only way your plan would work is to get rid of those people unless you could pass this without their votes.

  • 4 votes
#1.5 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:29 PM EDT
Jonathan-2055273

robert,

While it would be nice to apply any tax increases to the debt, the reality is that you can't pay down the debt until the deficit is eliminates. While they are not the same thing ( A deficit for example doesn't necessarily mean that you increase the debt, because it can come from savings ), in this case it does, the annual deficit is added to the debt. The United States no longer has any savings to withdraw from.

This takes the country back to the same point/question, how do you make 1.3 Trillion dollars of spending cuts/revenue increases without destroying the economy in the process.

  • 1 vote
#1.6 - Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:04 AM EDT
Minan59

1) All tax rates revert to the Clinton era levels and the extra tax revenue is all used to pay down the debt. When the debt is cut in half, tax rates for those making less than $1 Million per year revert to the Bush rates.

I would rather see: All tax rates revert to the Reagan era levels and the extra tax revenue is all used to pay down the debt. When the debt paid in full, tax rates can revert to the Clinton era levels.

  • 2 votes
#1.7 - Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:46 AM EDT
Robert in Ohio

JOnathan

Your point is well taken

My approach was that the deficit would be eliminated via the spending cuts (partially) and the tax revenue enhancements (the remainder) as I consider the deficit to be part of the debt problem. I know they are technically different things, but both must be "paid off".

Minian

I could also approve your idea, but the raise would be much more dramatic and probably harder to sell even to the Democrats since it would have a dramatic effect on the lower earners as well as the more wealthy

  • 1 vote
#1.8 - Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:09 AM EDT
Reply
onefan51

The debt limit was created in order to keep Congress from having to approve each and every debt issuance by Treasury - not, as Speaker Boehner claims to "reign in government spending."

Thanks. You have spoken the unvarnished truth. Boehner has placed ideology and extreme partisan ahead of what's good for America. There's a big difference between the debt ceiling, balancing the budget, and job growth.

Boehner says increasing taxes of the wealthy to balance the budget during a recession will hurt job growth. That's his theory. It is a fact that when government spending is cut during a recession, something advocated by Boehner, many jobs in the public sector will also be lost.

And if the debt ceiling isn't raised, Heaven help us all.

  • 10 votes
Reply#2 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:00 PM EDT
Free Mason-1490678Deleted
rick-2988168

after all this time watching these people and listening to them drone on and on I have come to the conclusion that it's a lost cause. the gop/baggers have made their position well known. we should just cancel all talks and disband congress. send them all home. lock them out. then when everything goes to hell they will be at home where the people who elected them can get to them personally.

  • 6 votes
Reply#4 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:38 PM EDT
Brian White

You may not like them, but their constituents elected them to represent them over Democrat contenders.

    #4.1 - Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:33 PM EDT
    Reply
    baddestbob

    the only thing these wrong wing conservative a holes cannot tolerate is an individual that looks like their lawn guy running the country.

    • 5 votes
    Reply#5 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:54 PM EDT
    sjayne2355

    Obama is Mexican? I thought he was Irish...

    • 3 votes
    #5.1 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:18 PM EDT
    baddestbob

    either way, he is an illegal. for christ's sake, the supreme court didn't even decide his election. them no good liberals stole that election.

    • 3 votes
    #5.2 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:31 PM EDT
    agagnu

    Bad-desbob, do you trust the supreme court with Clarence Thomas around? Do you really think liberals as a whole are no good, not one not two but the whole lot, the whole group ? Do you think the lawn guy is not better than the plumber ?
    Just need to know, what do you think of Grover Norquist, a traitor or a patriot?

    • 3 votes
    #5.3 - Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:50 AM EDT
    trm2008

    bob was being sarcastic.

    • 1 vote
    #5.4 - Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:15 AM EDT
    Reply
    mgbirish

    It's bad when the GOP puts the Koch Brothers and Norquist before the best interests of this country!

    • 8 votes
    Reply#6 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:50 PM EDT
    jopocop

    The Red Chinese are laughing at the decline and turmoil of the American Empire. This YouTube video says it all.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zeTMyNs5aA&feature=player_embedded

    What more do we need to know. Each Congress member and Obama have to watch this YouTube Red Chinese laugh a rama against the USA until they finally wake up and do the right things.

    I truly want my children and grandchildren to enjoy the great and proud and successful capitalistic America for this century and beyond.

      Reply#7 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:36 PM EDT
      Helpmeunderstand1

      The only reason the GOP receives the support of anyone but the rich is that they proclaim to be pro life. It works like this: We are going to make you pay more taxes than the wealthy; we will take your social programs away; we will weaken the public education system so you have a more difficult time succeeding; we will lower regulations on big business so they can take even more advantage of their workers and consumers; we will get involved in more wars so our poor have something to do; and we will laugh at the American people all the way to the bank, but, we are pro life. You have no choice but to support us because we have God on our side. If you support the Dems, you are approving of the murder of babies and you will go to hell. Remember to vote Republican because we are your ticket to heaven. Amen.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#8 - Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:55 PM EDT
      aqua surf-1123675

      Taxed Enough Already, don't you people get it? The more you tax, the more people will lose their jobs and homes. But you don't really care, do you? The only reason you Democrats don't like CC&B is because you didn't think of it first!

      • 1 vote
      Reply#9 - Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:57 AM EDT
      Jonathan-2055273

      Aqua surf

      You could double my company's tax rate and it would not affect jobs one bit. Actually it might entice us to hire a few more people. And I am the one that is making ALL those decisions right now (wish I wasn't because I would rather get back to my engineering work full time).

      As for my personal tax rate, it has absolutely no impact on hiring because I personally don't hire, my company does.

      • 5 votes
      #9.1 - Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:06 AM EDT
      agagnu

      bin Laden never had it so good, laughing and bubbling in agua surf. he never really lifted a finger, his associates in USA did it and are still doing it,

      • 1 vote
      #9.2 - Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:38 AM EDT
      Cipher-0

      The more you tax, the more people will lose their jobs and homes.

      So where has the job growth and massive increase in housing purchases been in the last decade, lost behind the couch somewhere?

      • 1 vote
      #9.3 - Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:03 AM EDT
      Reply
      jopocop

      I don't think the founding fathers ever envisioned the kind of grid lock that pervades our government. They had good intentions to come up with a system of checks and balances, with trying to figure out representation based on numbers of people per area, and based on equal members for each state. That Congressional idea then morphed into the Presidential electoral college idea.

      Now, this gridlock is so destructive, as it just prevents getting things fixed. Gridlock causes bad compromises and kicking the can down the road.

      Now, this gridlock is putting the USA into financial jeopardy, a self inflicted stock market crash and crash of the economy. This is crazy nuts stuff.

      All of them are doing an insane thing now to fight and promote gridlock. The people are going to riot in the streets if they are forced out of work and the economy goes into a tailspin. There is going to be hell to pay for all of them in Congress, including the President, if a self inflicted financial disaster unravels in the next few days.

      Nobody is a saint on this debt debate and crisis. They are all to blame in not getting a solution to save our financial markets and economy.

      It should have not even come close to this point.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#10 - Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:15 AM EDT
      Better Careful

      The GOP is fine with tax increases, just so long as those tax increases are not on the rich. Indeed, their entire scheme to fund discretionary General Fund spending by taking money from Social Security and Medicare amounts to a tax increase on the working man and middle class.

      They insist they must not return Social Security and Medicare money to those individuals who have invested in those programs for years, or decades. Why? Their clever idea is to sell cutting Social Security and Medicare payments as some kind of spending cuts, and as a substitute for actually spending cuts in General Fund programs. Indeed, some Republicans have raised the idea that contributions ought to go up, not down, while payouts all go down. The difference will simply be skimmed off the top to pay for government spending.

      That amounts to a new and regressive tax.

      Who is going to pay for right-wing spending? What General Fund programs are they willing or eager to cut? Who is going to pay for their desired increased spending for guns and war? Who is going to continue to fund tax breaks for Big Corporate and the rich? Who is going to pay for further tax cuts for right-wing pay-masters? Well, according to the right--wing, it's not they who'll pay, it's the rest of us.

      The right-wing likes their tax increases just fine, as long as it's not the rich and powerful who are paying for all their favorite spending programs.

      • 8 votes
      Reply#11 - Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:16 AM EDT
      Brian White

      Their clever idea is to sell cutting Social Security and Medicare payments as some kind of spending cuts, and as a substitute for actually spending cuts in General Fund programs

      You do realize what percent of the total federal budget is made up of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid right?

      http://www.federalbudget.com/

      There simply isn't enough money in the 'general' fund to cut to get us to a balanced budget.

        #11.1 - Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:37 PM EDT
        Reply
        BURGUNDY1222

        Republicans will pay dearly for their actions. Vote em out in 2012,all of them.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#12 - Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:14 AM EDT
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